I'm just learning to fly and decided to start with gliders (aerotow launch). However, as I joined a club its slow to build time and get experience. I was wondering if I could accelerate that with powered flight...

1) What powered flight skills could I concentrate on that would best accelerate the learning curve in the glider?

2) Would it be a better option to drive farther to get motoglider experience, or would the more nearby powered craft be just as good?

TIA,
Joel

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 5:33:17 PM UTC+3, Joel wrote:
> I'm just learning to fly and decided to start with gliders (aerotow launch). However, as I joined a club its slow to build time and get experience. I was wondering if I could accelerate that with powered flight...
>
> 1) What powered flight skills could I concentrate on that would best accelerate the learning curve in the glider?

Touch and goes, aka "circuits".

Circuit planning and the touchdown itself are probably what holds most people up in getting to solo. The flare and holdoff and touchdown are only five seconds or so, and you can only do it once per flight.

But do it at a quiet airfield where you can do an approach every three minutes, not every 10 - 15 minutes. And vary the approaches, don't just do "perfect" ones every time. (Power instructors may be reluctant to do that .. they tend to like to go by the numbers)


> 2) Would it be a better option to drive farther to get motoglider experience, or would the more nearby powered craft be just as good?

Motorglider would be better, but small Cessna/Piper approach speeds of approx 60 knots are close enough to glider speeds (at least glass gliders). The difference in checklists is annoying. The biggest difference is probably how high your eyes are at touchdown. But it's not too hard to switch.

Either way, if you go and do an hour of circuits at a quiet place then you'll probably have the landing nailed.

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 10:33:17 AM UTC-4, Joel wrote:
> I'm just learning to fly and decided to start with gliders (aerotow launch). However, as I joined a club its slow to build time and get experience. I was wondering if I could accelerate that with powered flight...
>
> 1) What powered flight skills could I concentrate on that would best accelerate the learning curve in the glider?
>
> 2) Would it be a better option to drive farther to get motoglider experience, or would the more nearby powered craft be just as good?
>
> TIA,
> Joel

As mentioned, pattern work helps, I would try to find a place with a taildragger. Something like a J-3 cub, Citabria or similar that is light on the controls, has a side throttle (similar to a dive brake handle, throttle controls sink-rate, pitch controls speed), the tailwheel makes you use your feet, stick (not yoke) and a light wing loading keeps the speeds down.

A major difference between power vs. sailplane is wingspan vs. fuselage length.
Power is "close to square" thus limited adverse yaw.
Sailplanes tend to have spans close to twice fuselage length, thus more pronounced adverse yaw.

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 6:39:06 PM UTC+3, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 10:33:17 AM UTC-4, Joel wrote:
> > I'm just learning to fly and decided to start with gliders (aerotow launch). However, as I joined a club its slow to build time and get experience.. I was wondering if I could accelerate that with powered flight...
> >
> > 1) What powered flight skills could I concentrate on that would best accelerate the learning curve in the glider?
> >
> > 2) Would it be a better option to drive farther to get motoglider experience, or would the more nearby powered craft be just as good?
> >
> > TIA,
> > Joel
>
> As mentioned, pattern work helps, I would try to find a place with a taildragger. Something like a J-3 cub, Citabria or similar that is light on the controls, has a side throttle (similar to a dive brake handle, throttle controls sink-rate, pitch controls speed), the tailwheel makes you use your feet, stick (not yoke) and a light wing loading keeps the speeds down.
>
> A major difference between power vs. sailplane is wingspan vs. fuselage length.
> Power is "close to square" thus limited adverse yaw.
> Sailplanes tend to have spans close to twice fuselage length, thus more pronounced adverse yaw.

Tiger Moth has very glider-like adverse yaw. But there are't a lot of them around now.

I don't think that's a big deal though, and neither are stick vs yoke or throttle position. Sure, that's all good if you can find a suitable plane, but there are a LOT more Cessnas around. The big thing, I think, is getting used to TLAR and dealing with when it doesn't look right, and how the ground looks when it's time to flare -- and practice with the actual hold-off.

Aerotows give you pretty good practice with extended flying near to the ground, and it's also good to do a lot of "hangar landings" at some point, with very little to no airbrake so you have even 20 or 30 seconds of practice in the hold-off.

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 10:33:17 AM UTC-4, Joel wrote:
> I'm just learning to fly and decided to start with gliders (aerotow launch). However, as I joined a club its slow to build time and get experience. I was wondering if I could accelerate that with powered flight...
>
> 1) What powered flight skills could I concentrate on that would best accelerate the learning curve in the glider?
>
> 2) Would it be a better option to drive farther to get motoglider experience, or would the more nearby powered craft be just as good?
>
> TIA,
> Joel

Buy CONDOR simulator program, USB stick and rudder pedals, and use the flight training part, in conjunction with your real-world training.

On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 1:17:45 AM UTC+3, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 10:33:17 AM UTC-4, Joel wrote:
> > I'm just learning to fly and decided to start with gliders (aerotow launch). However, as I joined a club its slow to build time and get experience.. I was wondering if I could accelerate that with powered flight...
> >
> > 1) What powered flight skills could I concentrate on that would best accelerate the learning curve in the glider?
> >
> > 2) Would it be a better option to drive farther to get motoglider experience, or would the more nearby powered craft be just as good?
> >
> > TIA,
> > Joel
>
> Buy CONDOR simulator program, USB stick and rudder pedals, and use the flight training part, in conjunction with your real-world training.

And race people online -- it's very cool.

We have pedals with Condor at the club, where we have an old Cirrus cockpit hooked up to Condor and a very large TV (80" maybe?). The Cirrus' stick, pedals, airbrakes, trim, and undercarriage are all connected to Condor. Works nicely, and any trial flight people who look serious get a sim session before their flight.

At home I just use a USB gaming stick with twist for rudder and it's fine.

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 7:33:17 AM UTC-7, Joel wrote:
> I'm just learning to fly and decided to start with gliders (aerotow launch). However, as I joined a club its slow to build time and get experience. I was wondering if I could accelerate that with powered flight...
>
> 1) What powered flight skills could I concentrate on that would best accelerate the learning curve in the glider?
>
> 2) Would it be a better option to drive farther to get motoglider experience, or would the more nearby powered craft be just as good?
>
> TIA,
> Joel

I think it is an excellent idea to get some power training before getting glider training. You can get a lot more concepts presented and maneuvers executed in an hour of training in power than you can in a glider.

Besides patterns and landing practice, you can do slow flight, stall recognition and recovery, and steep banked turns. Most important, I don't think any of the instruction would be counter productive.

Of course a motorglider would be better, but you can get a lot of instruction during the time you would be driving to and from the MG location.

Good luck with your training!

Tom

If you train in power, I suggest doing so in a taildragger, it'll teach your feet how to fly as well as the rest of you. Nosewheel aircraft tend to make for feet lazy in rudder skills, ground operations and landing in crosswinds. Not saying nosewheel won't do the job, but taildraggers are best - and unfortunately much harder to find instruction in.

Soaring is more about energy management than is power flying. The best thing you can do in a power plane, to relate directly to soaring, is haveing your engine quit. A normally less than enjoyable experience which is typically less traumatic if you have a glider rating.

On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 2:43:20 AM UTC+3, 2G wrote:
> I think it is an excellent idea to get some power training before getting glider training. You can get a lot more concepts presented and maneuvers executed in an hour of training in power than you can in a glider.

That's not the case if you are flying gliders in a location with reliable lift -- especially ridge lift. We are often fortunate to be able to do unlimited amounts of turns, stalls, even spins. Those are probably days when the student can't do the tow or landing, but that's why they mix them up!

I had a student that flew the glider in Microsoft flight simulator. He picked up aero tow very quickly. But then most kids good with video games will have good eye hand coordination.

Hardest parts are aero tow and landings.
BillT

Joel:

Welcome to quiet flight ! Learning as a sailplane pilot first is a great advantage in an airman's career of flight. It is not unusual to be frustrated with a club's slower training schedule. You might consider an interval with a commercial glider school. Or . . . as you asked, hints follow.

> 1) What powered flight skills could I concentrate on that would best accelerate the learning curve in the glider?

Find an airplane CFI who will agree to offer you power-at-idle from abeam the touchdown point approaches. To do this you will most likely need to use an uncontrolled (non-towered) airfield. Most airplane folks are Not Comfortable with this idling-approach anymore in the USA.

Ask to use pitch for approach speed and power to adjust(extend) glide slope.. The simple choice is to have the CFI-A add flaps when they want to (preferably when they decide you are high on slope)... and leave you with only power adjustments. This is the closest replication of being 'above-glide' and
using spoilers to descend as in a glider. After a few like this, you can integrate the selection/addition of flaps.

If your Airplane CFI wants to use the now-typical (airliner-style) approach and follow the VASI lights, it will NOT be a good prep for glider flying. I now see almost exclusively the style of incremental power reductions in the pattern after having added partial flaps on downind and achieve full flaps on early final -- carrying some extra rpm until over the threshold. Then they chop and plop.

Ask the CFI-A to handle all the radio calls until you are comfortable with the machine and the approach slopes. (Limiting the distractions until proficiency is sufficient.) Since you are the customer, and are doing this to meet your criteria, they should be willing.

The use of taildraggers is good, if you can find them, for the rudder use required, as mentioned.

>
> 2) Would it be a better option to drive farther to get motoglider experience, or would the more nearby powered craft be just as good?

It depends on whether the motorglider teacher will also emulate the glider slope control as mentioned above. But the MG time offers control response rate more like a typical glider (more adverse aileron yaw due to span) and will be more productive in airwork, ie., thermalling, turning stall behavior. Ask to be relieved of motor management, again to limit the complexity and ease your budget versus the 'training time'. You have specific objectives.

The single most important component in learning is your relationship with the teacher. Explain your situation, and you should be pointed to someone who can be supportive. Have more questions later? Pop them back here, again..

Good luck and safe flying,

Cindy B

On Mon, 14 Sep 2015 16:43:16 -0700, 2G wrote:

> Besides patterns and landing practice, you can do slow flight, stall
> recognition and recovery, and steep banked turns. Most important, I
> don't think any of the instruction would be counter productive.
>
There's possibly one item. One of my club's members added a PPL after
he'd soloed in gliders. He said he had a lot of problems until he
realised there is a fundamental difference that creeps into instructing:
in gliders we nail airspeed and don't much care about height, while power
pilots are taught to nail altitude (thanks to the quadrant rules) and
never mind airspeed variation.

I must say that, when I bought a ride in a Tiger Moth a couple of years
ago I found myself flying the ASI and ignoring the altimeter - and also
automatically heading for the juiciest cloud on track.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 6:17:45 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:

>
> Buy CONDOR simulator program, USB stick and rudder pedals, and use the flight training part, in conjunction with your real-world training.

I'll second that. I'm currently training my son in gliders (13 years old). I introduce a concept (right now we're fine-tuning crosswind takeoffs and landings) in Condor. He practices a little during the week, and when we get to the airport on the weekend he's already been through the particular objectives several times. Plus, I can vary the conditions so he has to think through the situation.

I'm a CFI-G living in the same house as the student, so that provides some advantage. But, as long as you are diligent about process and pay attention to whatever syllabus you are using, sim time on Condor is hugely effective.

Erik Mann (P3)

Wow, this is an excellent newsgroup with lots of helpful folks and even details replies. Thanks for the input.

I'll look into Condor, the FSX glider wasn't helping with the feel of the controls much (non-crisp Schweitzer 233 trainer), but I imagine its more useful regarding positioning during landing.

My options appear to be a Tomahawk or the like with a CFIG, or maybe an Aviat Husky taildragger with a CFI. I think landings with the CFIG sounds like good practice for me, the instructor will probably be able to help replicate glider landings like Cindy suggested.

Cheers,
J

On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 11:58:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:

> My options appear to be a Tomahawk or the like with a CFIG, or maybe an Aviat Husky taildragger with a CFI. I think landings with the CFIG sounds like good practice for me, the instructor will probably be able to help replicate glider landings like Cindy suggested.
>
> Cheers,
> J

I have an Aviat Husky and would recommend it over the Tomahawk - with reservations. The Husky is relatively complex compared to most training aircraft.. Perhaps more importantly, the instructor, unless built like a spidermonkey, will not have a great view of the instrument panel or access to controls save for stick, rudder, throttle transmit button, and slapping the backside of your head. Everything else will be your baby; mixture, prop, mags, flaps, all radio gear, engine monitoring, etc. This can present quite a load to a beginning student pilot who's active brain cells will often be near saturation learning to start the engine and taxi safely. I've heard a few instructors make unfavorable remarks re. the Husky's suitability as a primary trainer due to this.

I will say that if you learn to fly the Husky with finesse, you should be able to step into most any single engine with a minimum of fuss. Not because the Husky is all that difficult, it's an honest plane, but it isn't a pussycat. Oh, and for shear fun it'll spoil you for most other power planes!

On Wednesday, September 16, 2015 at 7:43:14 AM UTC+3, bumper wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 11:58:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > My options appear to be a Tomahawk or the like with a CFIG, or maybe an Aviat Husky taildragger with a CFI. I think landings with the CFIG sounds like good practice for me, the instructor will probably be able to help replicate glider landings like Cindy suggested.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > J
>
> I have an Aviat Husky and would recommend it over the Tomahawk - with reservations. The Husky is relatively complex compared to most training aircraft. Perhaps more importantly, the instructor, unless built like a spidermonkey, will not have a great view of the instrument panel or access to controls save for stick, rudder, throttle transmit button, and slapping the backside of your head. Everything else will be your baby; mixture, prop, mags, flaps, all radio gear, engine monitoring, etc. This can present quite a load to a beginning student pilot who's active brain cells will often be near saturation learning to start the engine and taxi safely. I've heard a few instructors make unfavorable remarks re. the Husky's suitability as a primary trainer due to this.
>
> I will say that if you learn to fly the Husky with finesse, you should be able to step into most any single engine with a minimum of fuss. Not because the Husky is all that difficult, it's an honest plane, but it isn't a pussycat. Oh, and for shear fun it'll spoil you for most other power planes!

As he is not intending to solo the Husky and is mainly after skills that will transfer to gliding, he could sit in the back seat. There are plenty of controls there for his purpose.

Several years ago I went for a flight with a friend in his 180 Super Cub. I sat in the back. I couldn't see the instruments - or at least the airspeed.. I did half a dozen circuits like this. On the first two approaches my friend called the airspeed to me. On the rest he didn't bother .. I was already nailing the airspeed based on wind noise and control feel.

It freaked me out a bit though with the steep climb outs without being able to see airspeed. I was afraid I'd stall it, but he just kept saying "you can go much steeper than this .. you've got plenty of speed...".

Visibility of things *outside* wasn't a problem from the back. You're supposed to slip a bit on finals, right :-)

On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 10:43:14 PM UTC-6, bumper wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 11:58:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > My options appear to be a Tomahawk or the like with a CFIG, or maybe an Aviat Husky taildragger with a CFI. I think landings with the CFIG sounds like good practice for me, the instructor will probably be able to help replicate glider landings like Cindy suggested.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > J
>
> I have an Aviat Husky and would recommend it over the Tomahawk - with reservations. The Husky is relatively complex compared to most training aircraft. Perhaps more importantly, the instructor, unless built like a spidermonkey, will not have a great view of the instrument panel or access to controls save for stick, rudder, throttle transmit button, and slapping the backside of your head. Everything else will be your baby; mixture, prop, mags, flaps, all radio gear, engine monitoring, etc. This can present quite a load to a beginning student pilot who's active brain cells will often be near saturation learning to start the engine and taxi safely. I've heard a few instructors make unfavorable remarks re. the Husky's suitability as a primary trainer due to this.
>
> I will say that if you learn to fly the Husky with finesse, you should be able to step into most any single engine with a minimum of fuss. Not because the Husky is all that difficult, it's an honest plane, but it isn't a pussycat. Oh, and for shear fun it'll spoil you for most other power planes!

The Husky should be fine to get some time in. It will be tandem seating and a stick like the glider. A Good CFI will be able to minimize the amount of extra work you have to do in the front seat. You will have to start the engine, but if you are not at a busy airport you should not be having to be changing radio frequency's, The CFI can minimize the Prop control changes needed. I wouldn't recommend flying from the back as you will get a better sight picture and reference to the instruments from the front seat. The CFI should be fine flying from the back seat. He might want to you fly the 1st flight from the back seat just to see how you handle it, but after that I would expect you to fly from the front.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

If you want powered training because you simply want to get extended flight time in, then go with Condor plus pedals. Go to glidercfi.com and follow some of the lessons. Fly the K-13 for a sort-of-similar experience to the 2-33. Try aerotow over and over and over, and once you nail it, you'll have little problem translating those skills to the real thing. Hit the 'Q' key when you get low to add 1,000 feet of altitude and extend the flight.

As long as you don't mistake nailing the sim flying for real life proficiency and view it as an adjunct to your CFI directed training, you should find that it speeds your progress in real life training for far less cost than powered training.

I bought Condor and started using it last night. It does help understand how much and when to use each of the controls, even though the feel of the controls vs. the real thing itself is quite different.

I'm not so much trying to save cost, as much as minimize the time needed to get to the solo point, and hence reduce the wait time for training at the club, but I think the Condor is vastly better than FSX, and does appear to be helpful in that regard. I'm expecting the powered flight to be useful as well.

Again, thanks for all the useful advice.

On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 10:44:52 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> I bought Condor and started using it last night. It does help understand how much and when to use each of the controls, even though the feel of the controls vs. the real thing itself is quite different.
>
> I'm not so much trying to save cost, as much as minimize the time needed to get to the solo point, and hence reduce the wait time for training at the club, but I think the Condor is vastly better than FSX, and does appear to be helpful in that regard. I'm expecting the powered flight to be useful as well.
>
> Again, thanks for all the useful advice.

Highly recommend going through a couple of the guides that the guys from Caesar Creek published: http://soar-ccsc.com/?page_id=915

While I agree the tactile feel isn't ideal, you can tweak the settings to reduce some of the sensitivity from the input devices (see the setup guide). More importantly, the ability to pause in mid-flight (e.g. turning base to final) and review your "plan" is a great benefit.

Right now, I'm working on crosswinds (takeoffs and landings) with my son. I can dial up a decent wind (10 kts) and we discuss the three phases of a takeoff (for example).
Me: Remind me again - what's going to happen when you are both on the ground?
Son: I'm going to focus on wings level and keeping the upwind wing slightly low while steering with rudder.
(I then hit "go" and he fights the weathervaning and some minor PIO tendency)
We pause after he gets in the air to take a look at where he is and what happens in the next few seconds (glider in the air, towplane still on the runway).
Etc.

I've found that the discussion in the real cockpit is much more effective since he's already seen the theory in practice and has absorbed some of the key visual cues (like keeping wings level, matching towplane bank angle, etc.)

Obviously, this is nothing new to the airlines and large commercial flight schools, but it's definitely a newer concept to the gliding ranks.

P3

My recomendation is to spend as much time as possible preparing for and passing the written exam. Your flight sessions will be much more productive if you understand the theory before you get in the cockpit. Any flight time you can get is benifical including condor, but make the most of each opportunity by being proactive. Read as much as possible. Fly the real thing on the weekend. After you have passed the written, if you are not satisfied with your progress in the club, take a vacation to some place like Estrella Sailport. There you can fly twice a day for a week or so. Be prepared however for a big price tag. The club can be frustrating in the begining. Don't give up, stay with it.

Jim